A Ben Doyle Lesson -- Part III / Ball-Turf...Please
 

The student continues his Turf-Ball difficulties. Ben continues to stress Ball-Turf as the desired end and Impact Hand Locaton as the necessary means. To no avail, a water bottle, golf balls, the tire -- each is positioned at one time or another outside the student's left foot and in his line-of-sight through the Impact Hand Location.

Note the difference in the position of the student's body -- Head centered, Hips and Weight left -- when Ben is hands-on and dragging the Hands down-and-through into their correct Impact Location. Then see how the student reverts to his habitual alignments -- Bobbing down and Swaying back and Scooping up -- when Ben is hands-off. He obviously is a strong Swinger -- a Hitter, actually, in my opinion -- who itches to hit full shots, no doubt to prove to Ben that he is far more capable than these little Shots seem to indicate.

But he is not more capable. Though he has good control of his Clubface (Hinge Action as controlled by the Flat Left Wrist), his control of the Clubhead Line-of-Flight (Inclined Plane as controlled by Right Forearm and #3 Pressure Point Tracing) is abysmal. Even in these powerfully-made full Shots, his sweeping Impact Geometry reveals the truth -- he hits Up through the Ball, not Down, and has no idea how to achieve a true Three-Dimensional Downstroke (Downward, Outward and Forward). To the student's chagrin, Ben keeps going back to the Short Strokes, striving to ingrain the Hands-in-Front Feel -- against the tire, the ball box, the ground, the Ball. Nothing seems to work. Both student and teacher are giving 100 percent, and the growing frustration is palpable.

The clip ends abruptly, as did our tape, and we are left to our own conclusions: Was the problem solved by lesson's end? Was it solved with post-lesson practice? Or was it, like so many of the world's problems, never solved...only reconciled with an acknowledgement of limitation and an attitude of toleration. For this concluding sidelines view into an hour of the life of Ben Doyle, click on www.lynnblakegolf.com/Video/Doylelesson3.wmv .

And as you watch, remember: Building a successful Golf Stroke is all about continuous progress toward an attainable objective, not instant perfection. We each have our own limitations -- time and talent are two 'biggies' -- and we should not expect any more of ourselves than we are both willing and able to give.

The good news is that even the most humble expectations can lead to a lifetime of enjoyment as we meet -- each at his own level -- the unending challenge of Golf.

..........

Interesting psychology going on. The student seems to revert back to the swing he showed up with; sort of needing to show Ben and himself: "But look at the ball flight: It is ok, more or less. I just need a small fix. I do not need this. Pleeease!"

In this segment Ben is explaining and informing, the student is absorbing - but not really applying - at least not yet.

I get the feeling the student came to Ben expecting to get his current swing adjusted to make him shoot lower numbers, and did not really expect a lesson on such a fundamental level would be needed to make him a substantially better ballstriker.

I personally spent 10 hours over 3 days with Ben. It was not until the 8th hour he said:
- Thats very negotiable. I can see 24 components. Now we can start upgrading.

I feel Ben is being as brutally honest to this guy as he was to me. Sticking to informing and explaining and trying to keep the student "within bounds" ("- I would start from chipping and work myself up") so that he can focus his attention on absorbing and applying important principles.

Entering "learning mode" is sometimes hard to do. Especially if you start sensing that an idea that you fundamentally believe in is far from the truth.

Many instructors out there does not have the integrity to stick to explaining and informing. I feel Ben does.

Most students out there probably show up at a 1-hour lesson hoping to return from it being able to shoot a score at 75-90% of their handicap.

IN reality I feel it would be more adviseable to take a lessing in order to understand what to look, look, look for. Then spending practice time to absorb and apply, not expecting immediate results.

Very interesting remark, Yoda.

Great Expectations? Charles Dickens Doesn't Live Here!
 

I don't recall mentioning any expectations for this student. I merely pointed out his first 'wobbly' point and what had to happen to correct it.

I did mention that "humble expectations" -- that is, rational expectations tempered in reality -- are the key to a lifetime of enjoyment of the Game. I also mentioned the will 'o the wisp of Instant Perfection. Both statements imply the opposite view of the one you have attributed to me.

That said, I have seen many, many students improve instantly and permanently with an improved Head position. Bottom line: It is extremely difficult to get your Hands well forward through Impact with your Head hanging back and down over your right Foot.

An Aside
 

I've noticed several of you have slower connections and these are large videos. Due to the time of each segment (approx. 20 minutes) they are going to big now matter how much I compress them. That said, a decision had to be made; do we sacrifice video quality for file size? In this case the answer is no. This is some of the highest quality teaching available. Even so, the video quality is highly compressed and barely CD quality. I appreciate your patience.

Bagger

"Master level golf"
 

If you are curious on "Master level golf" as mentioned 11 minutes 12 seconds into the clip, as I recall Bens definition is:
- Any ball position
- Any hinge action
- Any length (of shot)

For example: put a ball back in the stance, grab an 8-iron, use horizontal hinge and hit it 60 yards.

Pretty fun (and humblifying) exercise.

MASTER'S Level Of Execution
 

Thanks, Frederick, for Ben's three levels.

And from 3-F-6, the MASTER'S level of execution:

"With and without Wristcock, with and without #3 Accumulator, with any Hinging, with any Plane Line Combination from any Ball Location, Hitting or Swinging, with Right Forearm Takeaway and with a motionless Right Wrist."

That will keep you busy, as it did me the winter and spring of 2004, the year I re-entered the world of...

The Golfing Machine.

What does motionless right wrist mean Yoda?

Re: A Ben Doyle Lesson -- Part III / Ball-Turf...Please
 

Yoda,

Great to hear your view on the efforts of Ben & the student.

Watching this 3rd video, I think I am starting to see what the student is missing too. He seems to be having issues regarding RFP and extensior action. His right arms (elbow) seems to be so extended through most of the down stroke that it is getting close to a right arm swing. I think this might be a root cause that the student is unaware of.

The power leak may be a compensation to avoid hitting the turf before the ball and/or prematurely closing the clubface.

While Ben is stressing hip action and passive hands. I believe RFP and extensior action might turn on the lightbulb with this student.

This is a great exercise in swing analysis. Please let me know how I am doing.

Best regards,

Bernt

Faulty Pivot
 

Yoda

Very true! And if you can fix this moving off the ball...then the seemingly other endless faults to your current less than ideal pattern starts to disappear. A domino effect. Not to mention relieving the stress off of your right knee and lower back.

Thanks much.

PChandler

isnt it funny how this guy seems eager in his speech about wanting to learn how he wants to learn the right way, but then when ben wants him to just start at a chip he wants to always make a full swing which looks identical to every other one he has made. Its like hes there but hes really not absorbing that well he just wants to jump ahead instead of building up from the chip shot to the pitch etc.. it makes sense top me that if he cant do the small motions he wouldnt be able to do the larger ones but i guess not to him. also the preshot routine he just ditches it after every shot practically, ben shows him like 200 times it shows to me what ive seen before that most people really have a hard time changing there habits it really takes some dedication and it starts one swing at a time

don't know if i'd be any better but it is frustrating to watch so many times. i find myself sitting there waiting for the 'ah-ha' moment.....

Doyle Time
 

As I said, only an hour in the life of Ben Doyle.

are these short pitches and punches supposed to fade a little? or draw?

Thanks

do you hit many pitches that fade or draw it seems kinda hard to do if you are doing things correctly and making solid contact. when i do it they go relatively straight

I would say that the ones that Ben wants you to do would fade if anything. Look at the hinge action you're applying. You are driving down-and-out with a flat left wrist and really exaggerating it...which is the "no roll" feel of angled hinging.

And as we know, angled hinging will impart a slight fade spin onto the ball. But since it's such low velocity, expect straight shots with maybe an occasional fade if you take a longer stroke.

Re: A Ben Doyle Lesson -- Part III / Ball-Turf...Please
 

<<While Ben is stressing hip action and passive hands>>

Believing that Mr. Kelley's Hitting model did not stress this is what attracted me to TGM.

DRW

I will try and put this nicely
 

Are there a lot of student's this "slow" at understanding what a teacher wants you to try? He took forever and still don't know if he ever even understood how to appoach the ball. I think my 4 yr old could get that faster.

I can understand not getting the feel of what someone is trying to teach you, but he seemed to be off in his own world while Mr. Doyle was telling him what to do. Am I off on this?

It would frustrate me to no end if I was mr. Doyle teaching this guy. He was paying for something, but wasn't really listening.


Just curious, but how as a teacher do you handle students like this? Are student's like him a norm or not?

Aha moments.
 

I think this guy deserves some more latitude with his efforts. Untill someone posts one of those "It was me"-posts, we shouldn't assume he is a GSED. He may be totally lost w/o any framework or structure where to hang the information Ben Doyle is giving. And this could lead to "confused" behavior we see here.

One thing is certain - it's not easy to produce a dramatic "Aha..." moment on demand in real life.

It looks like Ben is building up several lines towards getting thru later in video. Like talking about the sound of turf contact should make several times - and then quietly going behind him to produce the desired effect after less then optimal try. Should work as a trigger point later, long after the lesson.


I do feel kind of spiritual brotherhood with this guy when it comes to learning new things. O:)


Vaako

Re: I will try and put this nicely
 

The problem here is not the guy being stupid. It should be compared to a situation when you have to re-learn something you normally do automatically.

Put your tees in your left pocket for a change. Note that for some time your hand will always search the right pocket first. Even though you would answer anyone that your tees are in your left pocket.

Actually I think the student needs to review this video. He should see that he is not always on the same wavelength as Ben is talking.

Like in the first vid, Ben wanted him to hit a chip and pitch, he tried a couple, not suceeding, then wanted to hit the full shot.

Ben keep bringing him back on track, but...

It would be interesting to see what the student is doing now and how much he has retained..

What I find interesting is that out of a large number of golf instructor I have watch give lessons, only a few IMO can give a lesson to the average golfer and expect success. The approach of the basics, drills, repeating it is something you don't see or I haven't seen that often. I know a few of the instructors here do it and it seem that they having glowing reviews and no negatives. This get up and full swing and fix it while doing that seems to be short sighted to me.

Hopefully the student picks up on it and benefits from these lessons for a long time in the future.

OK...

What we have here is a bunch of people who really don't know Ben from Adam.

No offense.

Ben feels like it IS HIS DUTY to, as he calls it, "Never Come Down."

What this means is that he is going to KEEP DOING IT HIS WAY until the student gets it. Or until INFINITY.

He will not CHANGE his approach.

Ok?

Now...if the guy keeps taking lessons from Ben or goes home and watches the tape and keeps trying to do it....he WILL GET IT!
Ok?

Now, the other thing is, Ben is NOT TEACHING FOR INSTANT RESULTS.

He has been a "Destination Instructor" since Tiger was in diapers and Ben has been taping lessons for students to take back home to China or Atlanta or Greenland since video cameras were in three parts.

He OVER TEACHES ON PURPOSE!!!!

He wants you to have a tape FULL OF INFORMATION to take home and watch 10,000 times.

An interesting side note:

Ben gave a similar lesson to a good pal of mine way, way back.

I learned how to teach compression, flat left wrist, hitting it with your pivot and about 4,567 other things watching the video BECAUSE Ben "never came down."

Now, I 'come down' ALL THE TIME...it is MY STYLE. But it isn't Ben's.

If you want ah-ha video moments, watch a Brian Manzella video, if you want relentless adherance to the book, watch a Lynn Blake lesson, if you want relentless adherance to what Ben considers to be the "essence" (my words) of G.O.L.F. then order some Ben lesson tapes.

But...trust me, Lynn GETS ah-ha momments with strict adherance to the book ALL THE TIME and with Ben's adherance to HIS core beliefs from the book HE gets Ah-ha moments ALL THE TIME.

Ben just figured YA'LL WOULD LEARN more from a lesson like this.

TRUST ME. :wink:

Relentless adherence???

My only disappointment with the video clips is not with Ben Doyle but with the student. I have watch many hours of Ben teaching- it is the foundation my education and have seen students ranging from seniors, blue haired ladies, pudgy men, to young guns, and not a one executed as poorly as this fellow. I hope this guy ‘gets it’ but I ask- why this tape?

Do yourself a favor, rip 50 bucks from the wallet and rent a tape from Ben, ask what he has, and watch it- you get three months. I might rent another, Ben tells me he has some good stuff teaching his grandson- that might be a good one.

Brian, what tape do you have?

reply
 

What I did find that was interesting and an Aha-moment was when on the third tape the student said, oh swing with my hips and not my hands. Then he said now that rings with me. I can understand that. I said to myself, he's been telling you that since tape one. :)

At least he finally got it I guess. We have been learning this for a while so we new what to look for and understand somewhat the incubator and this was a good example of that incubator in affect IMO, even though he was being told word for word for an hour.

I have about 100 hours of Ben teaching tapes "in stock"

and another 1000 hours in my coconut.

Well - I still feel "it's not easy to produce a dramatic "Aha..." moment on demand in real life". This seems to be the case beyond golf education. Against any Lynn Blake or Ben Doyle or Brian Manzella I should be able to find 1000 PGA pros who can't - without braking a sweat.

Good choice as a Ben Doyle tape to post. It reveals his style very well - none of that fake magical transformation stuff one can see in some *cough*leadbetter*cough* tapes. This was sorta what I was tying to say earlier; Real teaching situation with no window dressing. Didn't mean to little Ben's teaching skills - I think I can understand what he is doing and where he is going with this student.

The whole situation is - to me at least - easy to read/relate to. Very educational.

Why some of you seem to think this guy is an A1+ dork - and somehow spoiling this/his lesson - I don't get it. Is this some dividing line between you good golfers and us club hacks?

If someone knows how this ended in real life - please share!


Vaako

I just have to say it: This is a great thread.

Here we have a teacher who refuses to lower his standards - and a pupil who does everything he can to relate the stuff he already knows about the swing - with the stuff that Ben is trying to teach him.

In various situations in worklife I have been in the teacher's ans well as the student's shoes. I am not sure who is facing the greatest challenge - the teacher or the student. Anyway I have no problem identifying with both of them.

In addition to the tapes themselves, Brian's explanation of Ben's approach was very telling to me. But also the posts depicting the "every day" aspect of this difficult learning situation. A-ha experiences seldom comes without some sweat beforehand.

I don't know the end of this story yet. But I am quite convinced that if Ben's student finally gets it - he will appreaciate its value and he will be able to keep it.

This is NOT some dividing line. If you watch Ben teach other golfers on some of his rentals, you will see that instead of spending valuable time repeating himself, going over the same thing, Ben could move on and impart more knowledge on to us. Ben gets on a roll when he teaches, even he never knows what he will pass along at times, he needs to move along. But if he has to spend a hour getting a student to hit chips, pitches and punches the right way, that’s fine- to the student, but not as an instruction clip for us. It is a hour slice from Ben’s teaching life, but I think some of us wanted more.
Again, NOT Ben’s shortcomings, he did a great job with a tough student. This clip may work better for an AI or instructor to learn from than for non-teachers like us.

I haven't seen any of Ben's rentals you refer to, but understand these clips may seem a bit bland after seeing Ben on a roll.

The Chip-Pitch-Punch progression is topical right now - thanks to Brians "Flipper"-video. In that context - the struggle we see might prove valuable material to a lot of people.

But I think your last comment may be the real clue as to why this segment. This is after all TGM site with a lot of very TGM savy people around. The situation in the clips forces anyone w/ basic TGM knowledge to take the role of a teacher - no? - or you'll be bored to death. Once you turn the table around your analytical thinking process starts and...

"Why is the student almost allways throwing a full shot when Ben asks for a chip?"

Personally had much more success in that department here than for example with the Snead video.

Besides - who's to say you won't be an AI in a couple of years?


Vaako

By all means, call Ben and rent one, ask what he has. I know he has some teaching Elkington, Bobby Campett and Grant Waite. Martin Hall was renting many- he rented numbers (I'm reading from Ben promaotion piece of letters from Hall) #75- #93, #96. Talk to Ben- he will tell you that he teaches EVERYONE the same way.

For What It is Worth--------> The 'under ground' CD "Martee Make Over" is the best CD out there. Parts of it are in the gallery- I get more out of Lynn explaining Swinging and Hitting then any other cd to date. .

<< "Why is the student almost allways throwing a full shot when Ben asks for a chip?">>

I think Ben could have corrected that by having have him take the left hand off the club?

DRW

My point I was trying to make regarding the student was that this is something I see in a lot of teacher/student lessons. Is it wrong? Don't know for sure but it usually appears to take a longer time for the student to get it....

I lost track on how many times Ben would refocus the student.

My post was more directed not at the student in the video but for all of the readers, maybe it would help if they noticed this and what the impact was.

Something to mention, DID anyone notice that when Ben addresses the ball, be it demo balance on one foot or normal, that his right forearm and the clubshaft appear as one continious line. This is an endorsement of Ben address style, but certainly show that he has built a process to reduce unnecessary movement, IMO, and achieving good alignment. If you are into efficency routines, his has to be up at the top.

What is most tragic about the videos so far is.... I AM WORSE than the student. At the same time, that makes them brilliant for me. Ben's repetition of fundamental principals gets pumped into my coconut by repetition.

This series reminds me of John Wooden (pardon me if you have heard this before). One of Wooden's new freshmen at UCLA came to his first practice starry-eyed and eager to learn all the "inside secrets" that led UCLA to multiple NCAA championships under Wooden.

The first thing Wooden did was take the freshmen aside and teach them the proper way to tie their shoes. Wooden felt there was ONE PROPER way to tie the shoe so that the laces would NOT come undone on the court (say for example during a game when a nat'l chamionship was on the line). Well needless to say, the rookie was instantly disillusioned and did not pay attention. When do we learn how to make the super secret shots? Tieing shoes!!?? Bah! Wooden brought this rookie to an appreciation that fundamentals drive everything. Complex is only built upon a foundation of solid basic. Free-throws, dribbling, and passing count as much as a great jump-shot. So does tying your shoes.

Back to Doyle..... "one inch over the line"....."one inch over the line"..."not four inches"....."one inch over the line"......"left heel one inch"...."one inch over the line".....

Definately the patient style of John Wooden. Two Great Teachers who do not divert from imparting what is important.

PS: The UCLA rookie went on to be part of UCLA's championship dynasty and made it a point to mention his shoes never did come untied.

Abudoggie

It takes a Buddhist the better part of his life to learn how to boil the water to make a pot of tea.

Accomplishing any good endeavor takes a little care and attention

welcome to the club.

6b

Is this a gradual sinking-in process where results get better as repetition number goes up? Or, are there some specific points in the videos where you get it - sort of a (even small) stepwise increase in understanding?


Vaako

..........

While results may vary
 

Your progress is dependant upon your ability to:

1. Absorb (Understand)
2. Remember
3. The completeness of the information (TGM has it all; statues in the sun-no cracks to hide)
4. Application (your ablity to develop and personalize the "Machine Feel") where you can turn it loose and trust it.

The first time I worked with Ben (5 days in early June 1987) his camera was down and all I have is notes....


...and my photographic memories :wink:

Such a shame...either way, we'd probably not recognize you back then anyway! :P

Re: While results may vary
 

Was aiming more towards what Abudoggie was getting from viewing Ben. Continuous slope of better understanding or steps?


Vaako